Master Tax-Efficient Wealth and Investor Education with Whitney Elkins-Hutten

How much risk are you willing to take for that? What is your time horizon to take? What's your risk capacity like? It's not a matter if you're going to lose money or if a deal is going to go bad.

It's a matter of when something's going to go sideways or south.

Welcome to Truly Passive Income. I'm Neil Henderson.

And I'm Clint Harris. And our guest today is Whitney Elkins Hutton.

She's the director of Investor education@ passiveinvesting.com she's the founder of ASH wealth and BiggerPockets, author of Money for Tomorrow. She's a partner in over 800 million of real estate across multif family self storage and car washes.

And she teaches busy high earners how to build tax efficient Truly passive income with a simple fortress plan. Whitney, how are you today?

I'm doing great. Thank you so much for asking.

Absolutely. It's great to see you. So Whitney is a friend of ours. We, we know the Passive investing crew. A lot of great people there.

I'm actually from Columbia, South Carolina, where several of them are based. So great to see you again. We've had dinner before out of the Best Ever conference in Salt Lake City and Columbia too.

Yeah, in Columbia, South Carolina.

No, Columbia.

No, Ohio.

Columbus. Yeah, that's right, Columbus, Ohio, for the Left Field investor conference as well. So Whitney, wealth of Knowledge, excited to have you on here.

We've actually been looking a lot at your debt fund recently in the COGP offerings. I actually talked to Chad Zadinik this morning as well as several times recently. So a lot to unpack here.

But for those that don't know you, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are, how you got involved in alternative investment strategies and everything that you've done with passive investing.

Oh my gosh, a lot. That's like 20 years. Unpack. I'm going to try to keep it pretty short. So yeah, I am the director of Investor Education and PassiveInvesting.com.

I bought a house with a significant other and didn't realize it was going to be my first investment. Relationship fell apart about A month later and I had the house. I was the money partner, he was the, the, the, the work, the, the sweat equity side.

So long story short, I teach myself how to rehab that house and 11 months later I sell it, thinking that the house is going to sink me financially. It wasn't until after I sold it that I realized, oh, here's this cool $52,000 check.

And oh, by the way, you haven't been paying for any of your expenses the whole entire time you actually have been making money. And guess what? I do my taxes and I got to keep all of that tax free. And I'm like, whoa, how many more times can I do this?

So that's when I was bitten by the bug. It didn't require me to have an advanced education. You know, at this time I'm working in public health.

And long story short, I start, I was like, hey, if I ever choose to step away from public health, I can do this on the side. So did several more living flips, house hacks. Eventually scaled a 40 single family unit portfolio, decided to go bigger into multif family.

And then I started like taking a look at how can I get my retirement funds invested. And that really opened the door on passive investing.

And I've done, you know, raised capital on deals I'm the general partner on, you know, was 10 assets, we've exited two, so now eight assets.

And I really, at the end of the day, my love is teaching the investor, aspiring investors how to turn their active income and savings into long term income and passive wealth.

I love that.

Isn't it so funny how many times we hear the story of like, someone becomes an accidental landlord for one reason or another, like, didn't even intend to get into it, but you know, relationship or you know, a marriage or like move to a new town or I got deployed overseas and like just decided to rent out my house.

And a lot of times that accidental landlord turns into an active investor and that starts a process that usually goes through single family homes into multifamily.

And then eventually 20 years later in their career, a lot of times they're discovering passive Income because they've gotten to the point where their time is worth more than anything else. And as your time becomes more valuable, you look for opportunities to still get those three things you need in.

In successful investing, it's time, money and experience. But you, you don't have to have all those, you just have to have a combination.

So you're looking for ways that you can partner your capital with somebody else's time and experience because your time has gotten to the point in your life where it's worth more than anything else. And there's that funny trajectory that you see over and over. One of the big challenges is the education that comes along with that.

So I love that you're in that role. I know you do a great job in that role for the people that are brand new.

I personally think too many people look at a deal or an operator and like, hey, that looks good. Let me jump in. I know that you are big on the idea of being an active passive investor.

And if you're looking at the day to day, one of the things that I, I know you to be good at is that you're helping people come up with their goals and what they're investor thesis is. So talk to us about your personal beliefs as to the way that people should be investing and the way they should educate themselves.

Yeah. So I think we actually have to back up the train a little bit because you have to think about how we are trained around money and investing.

And it hasn't been until recently that, you know, money and financial education has entered the school system. So when I came up into through the school system, I mean we had a home economics class, that was about it. I learned how to balance a checkbook.

I didn't actually learn how money worked. I didn't know how bank financing worked. It was just like, hey, here's your income, here's your expenses.

Make sure you got more income at the end of the month than you do expenses. Cool. And let's save the rest in our retirement accounts. That was it. And really that's out of order. Right.

Because if you're going to build true wealth, you have to figure out how to tap into four other things first before actually contributing to a retirement account.

But the average employee person can't really acquire the other four ways to tap into tax savings aside from starting a business or a side hustle or investing in real estate.

And that's why real estate so powerful, like how can we leverage expenses, Utilize depreciation as one of those expenses to shelter income, how can we leverage, like LLC is how we can, you know, use other tax brackets, how can we use tax credits in order to lower our liability? Now, that is what gets people attracted to real estate, is the deal returns and how can I save on taxes?

But again, we got to actually continue backing up the train. We have to understand why you're getting into it to begin with. Like, you know, what freedom are you after?

Are you after time freedom before getting into real estate? We're all after financial freedom. That's a tool. Right? But what is that going to give you?

Is it time choice, freedom to create impact, to go do a passion project? Is it going to allow you to be location independent?

Then we got to start asking the questions like, okay, great, if that is what the freedom you're after, what financial attainment, you know, the tool, financial freedom, where do you need to be in order to achieve that goal? Right. And then we have a whole methodology and how we break that down. Okay, Just because, you know your numbers, a lot of people stop there.

They're like, I need 10k a month. I'm going to go into a deal. Well, hold on. How much risk are you willing to take for that? What is your time horizon to take? What's your risk capacity?

Like, you know, it's not a matter if, if you're going to lose money or if a deal is going to go bad. It's a matter of when something's going to go sideways or south. And it could be the deal, it could be the operator, it could be the market. Right?

So we have to, you know, sit down and work through a process to align all that together. And when you do, and it doesn't have to take long, that might just take a couple hours on a Saturday afternoon to think through all this.

Then we can start pivoting into, okay, now what deals actually aligned with your goals, your risk, your risk tolerance, your risk capacity, and your timeline horizon.

I love that.

And that, that's one of the thing, the reasons I think you guys have done a really good job of having different types of offerings that can meet people where they are.

Like, you guys are known to do multifamily and car washes, and I know you do storage as well, but you guys also have a very robust debt fund that offers rapid liquidity, solid returns on a. Is it, is it monthly or quarterly? You get to choose or is it one or the other? Which, how, how does your debt fund do?

Yeah, monthly cash flow or you can allow it to compound.

Okay, so monthly cash flow or compounding which means you guys open the door for the SD IRA crowd, which I'm sure it's a popular place for those. You're probably killing it. What percentage of your debt fund do you think is SDIRA or retirement funds?

I don't know, but my guess is not high enough. So I, you know, it's really a powerful tool.

Like when, you know, again, you know, even after the last three years of the rise of interest rates, you know, pause distributions, you know, scant exits on deals, maybe even capital loss, Ponzi schemes, frauds. Right. People are still very much trying to chase a return. That's not what the debt fund is.

Debt fund, when you, especially if you put it in your IRA account, is meant to preserve capital, create cash flow and you can use the compounding to get an equity like return that's like the holy grail. Put a dad fund that returns really well, allows it to compound, stick it in a tax advantaged account like, and just let her ride.

Yeah, very powerful. And that's why I think you guys have done a great job partnering.

I know you all are partnered with Rehab Wallet, which is the first position low LTV fix and flip fund. And they've got a long track record of just solid base hit after base hit after base hit.

And they're able to turn the capital and you guys are the ones raising the capital for that sometimes through a CO GP model.

And last I heard was $120 million in the fund, but I think headed to 150 and a lot of, a lot of turnover on those, those notes typically across the Carolinas. But I think that Rehab Wallet is funding all over. We actually had a call with Kelly, the operator of that fund, last last month.

And I think that that is a really unique strategy because you mentioned that over the last few years there's been a lot of economic headwinds and trouble in the industry. People social media going dark, a lot of capital calls, a lot of pause distributions, some total losses. You're right.

Some fraud that's been uncovered. It's a lot. And so a lot of people are very put off by private or alternative investment strategies right now.

And I think that it's hard for people to believe in a pro forma IRR that's supposed to pay out three, five or seven years from now. For a lot of people it just makes sense to have that more consistent cash flow.

And especially also as people are getting closer to retirement, maybe you don't want to lock money up for five to seven years. Maybe it makes so much more sense if you're retiring in 18 to 36 months, that you just kind of want that consistent cash flow.

And I think that you guys have done a great job of broadening your investor pool.

And ultimately that's what you want, is getting those people in your ecosystem and having an option for them that whatever they're looking for, that you, it's something that you can offer without them leaving and heading to another ecosystem. So you guys have been well rounded with that.

I think you guys have a lot of credibility because you've, you've grown to a large level and rehab wallet has been at this for a long time.

I think that there's something that I don't like that's happening in the investor base is there's a lot of doubt and a lot of economic uncertainty and there's a lot of debt funds that are popping up, there's a lot of cash flow funds, there's a lot of mezzanine, there's a lot of second position type stuff popping up. And it's popping up because people have put themselves in situation with variable rate debt that they're struggling.

And so I think there's risk that, you know, Warren Buffett says you can't tell who's skinny dip until the tide rolls out. We've seen a lot of people that have really been exposed.

And on one hand, I think it's actually a great time to look at alternative investments because you can see the people that have a solid business plan that have been doing a good job. At the same time, you have so many like mezzanine debt and second position debt funds that are popping up.

How are you giving people counsel as to how they pick offerings, how they pick operators, and how they align with the right people?

Goodness, there's a lot to unpack there.

And I think the first place that you have to start, one, you have to understand, you have to understand what your risk tolerance and risk capacity is. Then you have to evaluate the operator and then you have to evaluate the actual deal.

So for you, if you're an existing investor in a deal that's looking to bring on mezzanine capital or a second position, you know, you know, solution that could be a solution to avoid a capital cost. So it gives you a choice to participate or not. It might actually protect your existing capital in the deal. But you have to. One, the.

Anytime I an investor asks me this question, the first question I asked them, I'm like, do you even have the capital to put into something like this? If the Answer is no. Like, move on. Right? If you have the capital now, let's move on to like the operator. Like, what is the operator?

How are they performing? Is this just one single deal and you're keeping your risk compartmentalized?

I've seen some preferred equity funds where it's a, I won't name the operator, but it's the deal that I'm in with another operator.

I want, I have one assets that's challenged with them, but their preferred equity fund, they're requiring me to put money into the preferred equity fund and it's going into five other deals that are challenged. Okay. So for me as the existing investor, that doesn't feel good. Like I'm taking capital and I'm putting it into preferred equity fund.

And not, not only am I exposed to not my deal, but other people's deals that are challenged. But if you're a new investor, that could be an interesting position to take. Why is that?

Is because you are now behind, immediately behind the initial capital stack. Okay, so you're in again a second position, right.

Are you secured by the investment, are you secured by the business, or are you in an unsecured position? I think that you have to answer those questions for yourself. Now we move on to the deal.

Not all deals, when they bring on a mezzanine or a promissory note or something like that, some may just need like a million dollar infusion to pay for a rate cap extension. And they're, they can get to six months refinance or exit. Like, you know, yes, they have a gap, but it's pretty minimal.

Other deals, they might need 5, 6, $8 million, $10 million. That asset might be 20% undervalued right now. That is not an asset that I would say would warrant.

Go to one, why would the operator even bring on a promissory, you know, or a mezzanine debt position? Two, you have to think as an investor, is that a risk that you're willing to take to get that reward rewarded?

Return Honestly, if an investment is that underwater, I would like to see a capital call happen before the investor or the operator brought on any secondary debt position. Now, I'll give you a little, little hint.

If you have a deal that is that challenged and the operator says we cannot get a second loan or institutional money at all. Like that's read between the lines there.

I'm just gonna say that the drain.

Yeah, there's, you know, it's been, we've been in a commercial real estate recession for the last three years. It hit storage, it hit multifamily a lot harder. I know a lot of, and I know a lot of really good operators.

We're having tough times with deals right now. A lot of them, I didn't even bring up office because office is Armageddon.

And you know, so a lot of operators got over their skis coming out of COVID and you know, that rapid interest rate rise really hurt them. So.

But I want to be clear, we were sort of talking about these different debt offerings that are out there, but the passive investing debt fund, cash flow fund is not that correct?

Correct, yeah. So we actually have three different offerings, two of which are open right now. One is the pick real estate debt fund.

That is what we were talking about earlier in the show. It invests, lends money to investors that are doing fix and flip projects. It is plain Jane vanilla. No tricky stuff.

No bank leverage to juice the returns. You know, you know, we've been, you know, just incrementally hitting base hits, you know, for the past five years within that fund.

That's what we want to do. We want to keep it super conservative for our investors. Now investors go look at that and they go 6 to 10% preferred return.

I don't know if I want to do that. I would like to get more. Great. If you want more return, you're probably going to have to take on more risk.

That's where we have like our yield fund, which does go into like, like I said, those small positions in some of our multifamily deals in order to like just get them to the next extension period. Then the asset we're repositioning, selling, exiting, making everybody whole. Cool. I think I, I do want to back up.

So people went into self storage, office, industrial, multifamily, you name it. But when that's all in the, if you look at the layers of the capital stack, that's all in the common equity position.

That is the highest risk, highest reward. So when asset prices go down, that is the first layer of the capital stack to get wiped out. Who's the safest? The bank.

They're at the bottom of the capital stack, right? And so mezzanine debt sits right behind them, preferred equity sits right behind them. And then you get into the common equity position.

So even people that are saying I'm going into a preferred equity deal, I'll do nothing before besides preferred equity, you got to realize that you're, you're two to three layers up that capital stack already.

So I've really been trying to help investors fully understand it's not a matter if we hit this type of market again, it's a matter of when will it be five years from now or 12 years from now, like the last run. How do you position your portfolio where you have liquidity and reserves, you have consistent cash flow come in and you have a layer that's growth.

But you're not expecting one investment to provide everything in your portfolio. You gotta look at the blend of the whole.

I love that.

Because even if you're quote unquote, diversified across different asset geography and operator, if you're not diversified across different debt structure and variable rate affects all of it. It affects assets across the landscape. I agree. Those three things I think is great.

But also diversification across debt structure and time cycle, shorter term, midterm and long term projects paying out I think creates a little bit of. I'll just say this, you're dead on.

And I think a lot of people know it now than knew it a few years ago when people that thought they were diversified got exposed.

Because how many people do you still talk to that say, hey, I'm exiting a multif family deal, I've got $500,000 of capital gain that I'm taking. I need to go into one deal that's going to get me tax benefits before the end of the year. I mean we, we still happens all the time.

I mean the, the tax tail is continuing to wag the dog. I'm not saying that that's not a something to plan for.

It's just that if I got a windfall of capital right now, if I was exiting in business or exiting a multi family dealer or whatever, I would first look, do I have my portfolio properly structured? Because this is an amazing time to get that done.

I hear you. Your focus here is on risk in a much more meaningful way than a lot of people.

So many people are focused on returns because they're trying to sell you a product. I think your focus on risk is because you're coming from a position of education and you want to be doing this for a long time.

So let Me ask you a question here. There's one thing that you do that I do not see anybody else in the industry doing. You encourage LPs for exactly what you talked about.

Liquidity, to hold liquidity for taxes. Potential capital calls have that cash in reserves.

A lot of people don't tell you, hey, for every X amount of dollars you're investing, you need to keep reserves to protect yourselves and liquidity on the back end in the event of there's potential capital calls. You're not scrambling.

So what's the rule of thumb that you have for cash reserves for, say, somebody has $100,000 to invest across different asset types? How are you training and educating people in terms of protecting themselves?

This deal is actually going to cross the finish line here in the next year. So. But I couldn't make the first capital call because I didn't have the liquidity and it wasn't that big of a capital call.

I thought I was doing well. I had like my personal reserves, right? Like six months of expenses set aside should, you know, you know, things go south.

I had my whole portfolio deployed because I was getting all this cash flow. I'm living, I'm living well, right. Like I'm financially free. But whenever they say, hey, we need $30,000 for a capital call, I went, oh, whoa.

Now I had to. I didn't, you know, I didn't meet the full capital call. But I did have to liquidate other assets.

I was in the privileged position to where I could do that and still make part of the capital call. Other investors, I've heard they were presented with a capital call and they, they were all ill liquid. Right.

And so that is one thing that I really stress now is the liquidity and reserve position. Yes. Make sure you can float six to 12 months minimum for yourself. You know, if you're closer to retirement, you might consider going up to 24 months.

That's just for your personal household reserves.

If you're passively investing, you might consider carrying an extra 10% of like your portfolio, you know, set aside and being able to meet a capital call. And that doesn't mean you have to keep it in the bank or a money market account.

This is where I love debt funds like the I call them tier 2, cash flow plays, you know, things like our pick real estate debt fund. I love that because you can get liquidity.

Like if I got hit with a capital call I could pull out of, now I have that debt layer and I can liquidate that position.

But again, I see investors getting antsy and they're like, well, if I lock my up my money for 12 months or 24 months or 36 months, I can get an extra percentage point or 2 percentage points. That's not the point of the layer. The point of the layer is to create cash flow and flexibility as you move through the market cycles.

You bring up such a great point and I want to circle back for a second on a point we glossed over, which is people chasing tax advantage is over, over the risk. People are so obsessed. Well, I have to, I have to. I've got this $500,000 windfall I got. I can't let the tax man get any of it.

So I'm going to roll it over into something that's completely risky and you're all in on it. And it's like, okay, well great, you just save, you kept some money from the tax man, but you also just expose yourself to massive risk.

And it's like, okay, well you save some money on the taxes, but are you willing to lose that entire stash because you just were so desperate to avoid the taxes that you went into something that could go completely belly up in the next two years?

No, very real. I mean again, I, A lot of what I teach I've actually learned the hard way. They're like lessons in learning.

No, not the best time. There was really no way for me to know that fully at that point in time. But what was the risk I was taking? I was taking two big risks.

One, the deal had adjustable rate mortgage on it. So we all know where that's going, where we're going with that story.

It's simple math, but I Didn't like sit there long enough. I was just like, oh yeah, I could.

You know, one deal in my portfolio has adjustable rate mortgage, you know, roll the dice, kind of shrug your shoulders, we'll see how that goes. Right. But yeah, it, it, it's real. And I think sometimes people are, don't fully understand depreciation recapture.

They don't fully understand capital gains. They don't understand they have other mechanisms in place in order to lessen that impact.

But if they have other passive investments, one, we don't know if that tax, the, the level of that tax impact. They need to sit down with their CPA to figure that out.

Two, do they have other losses in their portfolio, passive losses that could wash that tax impact?

Three, could they actually, when they, if they get liquidated or exited on an asset, could they take that and go invest it in another deal and restart their depreciation clock and use those losses or. This is not the best, you know, I don't wish this for anybody. Do you have other capital losses in your portfolio that could actually wash that deal?

I'm like, are you sure? Turns out he was taking inline depreciation, not. He didn't even do accelerated depreciation depreciation. Yeah. And so, or bonus depreciation.

I'm like, are you sure? Do you have the number to back that up?

And you know, by the time we got to the end of the call and I explained to him how depreciation recapture works mechanically, he was like, oh, oh, I'm in more control than I thought. I'm like, yes, but that's where I love stepping in, is helping fill that gap in the education.

Yeah, it's almost a who, not how. Like, you don't need to know everything. You just need to know that the partners that you're working with do.

So we've talked about making money, we talked about preserving capital on the back and we've talked about tax deferred.

But, but In Money for Tomorrow, you talk about investors over focusing on creating and growing wealth and not focusing enough on keeping it or on passing it along.

So let's talk about a little bit past you've made money, hopefully you've saved on your taxes along the way, but at some point there's going to be a transfer of your estate. Right. So what single estate steps have, have saved families large amounts?

Like what are the things that you're educating people on and pointing out that when we're talking about, talk about capital preservation and succession plan.

Yeah.

So really that the book Money for Tomorrow, it was a series of notes on my own investing journey that, that I was keeping as well as I developed it into a manual for my daughter in case something happened to me. She would know how to, you know, create, keep, grow and pass the wealth on.

But these were lessons that I learned out of settling five estates, three probates and two trust. And there was some common errors that I saw across all of the estates. One of the biggest errors that I saw was incapacity planning.

And so I think when we say estate planning, passing on wealth, everybody immediately jumps to a, well, maybe a trust. But you know, nobody likes talking about this. They always think that I can do this at a later point in time. But what happens?

You slip, trip and fall today, bang your head and you're in a coma for like month or two. Like what happens then? Right.

We all assume that our partner, or if we don't have a partner, our parents, our kids or whatever would automatically be able to be in charge of our health care. But that's not true. States have their own rules.

So number one, have a good incapacity plan in place, a living will, healthcare directors, power of attorney. Because what you who you don't want making those decisions is probably the state or the hospital or other attorneys.

They all have their own priorities. The number two we transition into, do you need a will or a trust? And there's differences between the two. I lean towards revocable trust.

That's my jam. But I'm not a lawyer. So sit down with a lawyer and discuss your risk, what you have got going on in your portfolio. Do you have kids?

But you definitely want one of those tools in place because you don't again, you don't want the state deciding what happens with your assets when you die.

So wills, I don't think people realize how public every creditor and predator out there is going to know that that person died and they're going to know all of their assets Right. They're going to know the dollar amount. They're going to know, like all that's literally written in the newspaper. And it's very disconcerting.

Um, so that's why I lean towards trust. A willow is a tool so your family can technically sue your estate in order to get the assets out. Now, there's things you can do to sidestep that.

I go through like some two or three, like, hacks that you can actually do tonight in the book, money for tomorrow in order to get some of your assets immediately out of the probate cycle. But that's number two, how do we plan for, legally plan for our assets to pass?

And then number three, we can have a good incapacity plan, we can have a good will or trust written.

But if the people we're giving the money to don't know how to use it, if the executor doesn't know who's supposed to get what and where, they don't know where all the assets are. If they don't know where the documents are, things are going to get really fun really fast.

And I, I'm air quotes there or if the money does finally make it to the air. If and when does the air know what to do with money? Are they educated? Do they know how money works?

Do they, you know, know about, you know, market cycles, credit cycles? Do they know about investing? Did you teach them? And you know, my daughter, that's what I, I was like terrified after my mom passed away.

I was like, things can happen, go south really fast. My daughter was six when that happened. And I was like, all right, we gotta start, start it right now. We're gonna play cashflow for kids.

We're gonna learn what an asset is and a liability. So you start there. Games, books, them, working in your business.

Just bought that game up for my six year old.

Well, Whitney, we've only scratched the surface of Whitney Elkins Hutton. This has really just been kind of a Whitney taster.

Yeah.

So to speak. If you want to, you know, learn a lot more, we'll. We'll give you a chance to tell people where you can do that.

But I want to finish off with our last question that we ask every guest, and that's that. Is there a book that you find yourself recommending again and again to friends and colleagues?

So, I mean, obviously, if you're talking financials, you know, if you're starting off investing or even a seasoned investor, I really push people to money for tomorrow. That's why I wrote the book. Other Books. The book that I read every year is the one thing. I mean that that book has really changed my life.

And every time I pick it up, I always pick up something entirely different, you know, on how to organize my time, prioritize myself, you know, organize my priorities and stay in alignment with them. So that is, you know, I, I recommend that for everybody, not, you know, whether you're an investor or not.

My favorite books are the books that make it onto that short list that you try to read every year, but every time that you do, you get something different out of them because you're in a different place and your bread's brain is in a different head space and you're, you're hearing something that is just more applicable to where you are in your life. Right. Then it's just that encouragement to just keep investing in yourself.

Because a lot of times the lessons that you learn depends on the lessons that you need to hear. Right? Then I love it.

Oh, absolutely.

Whitney Elkins Hutton, thank you so much for joining us. Director of Investor education@ passiveinvesting.com we are going to continue to watching all of Yalls success and cheer you on.

For anyone interested in hearing more about you or what you guys are up to, what would be the best way for them to connect and do that?

Yeah, you can Visit the website passiveinvestingwithwhitney.com There you can schedule, you know, one on one time with me and we can talk about your investing goals and go from there.

That sounds great. Thank you, Whitney. We really appreciate you. Thank you for spending some time with us.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on.

Thank you so much for listening and watching the Truly Passive Income podcast.

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