A Step-by-Step Guide To Win In Any Business You Choose with John T. Hewitt

You have to have the ability to have a fairly accurate vision of the future and then to be able to convince everyone to buy into that.

So you have to convince your investors, your employees, your customers.

You have to convince the world that you're going in the right direction.

Welcome to truly passive income.

I'm Neil Henderson.

And I'm Clint Harris.

So our guest today is Mister John Hewitt.

John is the founder of two, not one, but two major tax preparation companies, Jackson Hewitt and Liberty tax.

And he now leads loyalty brands, a conglomerate of various franchises.

Hewitt emphasized the importance of having a system in business and highlights the success rate of franchises compared to independent businesses.

And we're going to talk to him about franchises and tax preparation.

And I'm pleased as punched to have you with us.

John, thanks for joining us.

My pleasure.

Thank you.

So like I said, we were chatting just before we got on the call that the podcast is called truly passive income.

And so it's a little unusual we're having somebody in here who specializes in franchises.

But you've had a remarkable journey from your early days at h and our block to founding Jackson Hewitt and Liberty.

Can you share with us what initially sparked your interest in the tax preparation industry and entrepreneurship in general?

Sure.

I got blessed when I was in college.

My dad had been a wannabe entrepreneur his whole life, but I was born when he was at Michigan State and he was a freshman and he had three more children before he graduated and so we were poor and he never had a chance to become an entrepreneur early in life because he had so many children and he was the sole breadwinner.

And long about the time I was in college, he became a CFO of a public company.

Now he had more money.

The kids were grown where most of the kids were grown, at least up into high school.

And he decided that he wanted to buy an H and R Wok franchise.

So we lived in a suburb of Buffalo called Hamburg and they didn't have an office.

HR block didn't have an office.

So he called him up and said he'd like to buy a franchise.

And they said, well, as a matter of fact, we're going to open a company store there this year.

Maybe your son could take our course and work for us.

So I took the H and R block text course and so blessed that 20 years old, I found out what I wanted to be the rest of my life and I started working for h and R block.

Twelve years later, I was a regional director managing 250 offices.

My dad, still burning to be an entrepreneur, bought one of the first apples by mail.

And he likes it better than the mainframe that was running his public company.

So he convinced me to leave my job and join him and build the first tax off for an Apple computer.

So my dad got me into taxes and my dad got me into leaving HR block, the Fortune 500 company and becoming an entrepreneur.

Wow, a lot to unpack there.

So you actually started ground up building the system, like literally building the computer system and the software itself.

And then you built the rest of the business outside of that.

And then from there took it on and started franchising and opening up offices.

Tell us a little bit about that growth trajectory and what were some of the major challenges that you faced and how you navigated them.

Sure, I started.

I got again blessed.

And no one wanted our software.

You guys aren't old enough to remember a world without computers.

And we looked around for a place to use it.

We tried to sell it to block.

People asked us why we don't computerize.

We say, why should we?

Customers don't care, doesn't save us any money.

We're never going to computerize.

So no one in the world had a storefront tax preparation at a computer.

So we got blessed and found Mel Jackson tax service here in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

And the biggest blessing was the weather here.

So much nicer than Buffalo.

And it's a billion dollar company.

So I'm one of less than 10,000 people to build in the United States ever to build the billion dollar company.

You know, John, as I have become an entrepreneur myself, I beat my head up against the wall trying to come up with ideas for businesses for years.

And finally I settled on real estate just because it was a sort of a repeatable.

There was a lot of roadmap, a lot of people who've done real estate.

There's a roadmap to follow.

In many respects, that's what franchising is, is someone has already built the business and they've built a roadmap for you.

And one of the things that has hit me over the head over the last year or so we're at Nomad Capital.

We run on the entrepreneurial operating system through traction.

And I've worked at other companies before that really had no systems and if you don't have assets and you don't have systems and processes, you don't really have a business.

You have a job and maybe you own some assets, you don't have a business.

And what's so powerful to me about the franchising and first of all, just getting a business to run correctly is now it becomes something that someday you could maybe sell to someone else and exit it or grow or whatever.

Is that correct?

That's exactly right.

As a matter of fact, along the way in after 15 years, we sold Jackson it for $500 million and started over with Liberty tax with a new system.

And I had a not compete that covered most of the United States, but it didn't cover Canada because Jackson Hewitt never went to Canada.

And having grown up in Buffalo, we started Liberty tax in Canada.

Beating up on my own company, beating up on Jackson Hewitt and HR block.

We grew faster than both of them combined.

But again, I sold that for 500.

It was worth $500 million.

So I built two large franchise chains with 10,000 locations that yes, you're building net worth you're building and talking about that royalty stream that you receive as a franchisor.

That's not passive income, but in a way it's a recurring revenue that's incredibly important.

There's a couple different directions I want to go here.

I have a feeling we're going to run out of time before.

I've got a long list of questions that I'm very interested in.

But I want to talk a little bit about your trajectory with what you did.

And then I'd also like to ask some questions about why maybe a franchise is something that an individual operator may want to think about.

But this seems very intentional, the way that you did everything, the way that you package it together and you literally built it from the ground up, starting with the computer system and then building the business systems around that.

And I have a feeling that wasn't by accident.

And you seem very intentional with everything that you've done.

And in your bio you talk about the importance of having a visionary mindset.

And I'm a fan of Jim Collins.

So I love the fact that you've got the big hairy audacious goals section as well.

But you clearly have a knack for setting high goals and then being driven to accomplish that.

So talk to me just in general about goal setting mindset and taking that to a billion dollar valuation.

Yeah, we said you have to be almost on the tightrope of crazy to do something spectacular.

Now no one had ever been able to compete with them.

The largest competitor had 200 and yet I set about to be bigger than block.

So I think it's incredibly one of the, I do a mentoring hour a week myself and on one of them about two months ago I answered the question what are the attributes to being a spectacular huge growth company?

And I've been asked, the number one question I've ever been asked in my career is how did you do it?

I mean what was the secret?

What was the one thing that set you apart?

And I realized I had a couple months ago and said it's not just one thing.

I said and I love, love top ten lists starting with the Ten Commandments.

So I have top ten for ten most important things to do at liberty tax, top most Tim Boson things to do at our zoom and grooming franchise where everyone has a top ten list.

So I said I'm going to come up with a top ten list of what are the ten most important things to grow in exponentially.

And I sat down the next day and I thought I could only come up with five or six.

I came up with ten and then by the next week before I did my presentation I thought of two more.

So my top ten is actually top twelve.

And I figure it's okay to have top twelve out of ten because the Big Ten football has 14 or 15 teams.

So if they can do it, I can do it.

So I spent an hour on the most important things to do.

But one of the most important things to do top ten for sure is set big hairy audacious goal.

You can't if you set a small goal like I'm going to buy six offices and grow to 30.

Right.

So you set the goal very high and you adjust your behavior to do that.

And a second part of the top ten was systematic.

You have to have systems for things that are going to happen often.

You have to have systems so that you're not your people are continually addressing the same problem over and over again.

They need to have a problem solution in advance of.

And so everything is set up for a system.

And last week I did an episode on why you should be a franchisee versus a mom and pop, and I spent a whole hour on that.

There are 30 reasons that you should be a franchisee versus a mom and pop.

Number one reason by far is the system of doing business.

To be successful, you have to have people and you have to have systems.

Those are the two key attributes of success.

Man, you're speaking our language.

Clint and I are.

We're in the self storage business.

We own and operate about.

We're at about twelve dozen facilities.

About a dozen facilities.

And the self storage industry, it's a very fragmented industry.

There are a ton of mom and pop self storage facilities spread all across the country.

You know, they're maybe owned by one, where somebody owns one or two facilities and anybody you've ever been to a self storage field, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

They're not.

They're kind of dilapidated.

They're often not great areas.

They don't pick up the phone.

There's maybe somebody living on site above one of the units.

Basically what you encounter is it's not a business.

Someone built that at some point.

They probably a lot of times their own or operated.

They've built themselves a very lucrative job.

But it's just a job.

It's not a business.

They do so much of the work themselves, and so much so that sometimes when you go to buy them and they decide, all right, now it's time to sell their records, like their expenses will have all these things that aren't included.

Landscaping, all that stuff where it's like they just did it themselves and then they try and sell it and they're going to somebody.

Well, you know, where's the expenses for landscaping?

Well, I do that myself.

Okay, well, I'm gonna have to hire someone to do that now.

And so it's.

You're speaking my language, you know, and especially, we have our quarterly meeting tomorrow.

And so much of our focus over the last six months has just been process, process, process, document, document, document.

Absolutely.

There's no other solution.

If you want to grow to be large, you can't have, essentially, if you don't have systems, you're just a handful, a dozen bottom box.

So I want to talk about the other side of growth there.

Obviously, the business systems, you clearly have a knack for that.

You built it from the ground up.

When you have that much rapid growth.

I'm curious to know about the human component, creating a culture and handling rapid growth that is so fast that I'm sure that it could potentially get reckless, not under the right leadership and with the right boundaries and right guidelines.

So talk to me about the human component, the culture you created, your belief in how to treat people, things like that.

You know, I've been a student of business my whole career, and I didn't learn about culture until I was about 40 years old.

But fast growth, rapid growth, exponential growth is chaotic.

No matter what.

It's chaotic.

The people you get.

They had about 70% market share.

So I took my two top people to.

And we went and spent 2 hours in a Wegmans store in a morning in Rochester, New York.

And actually, I got the answer, because, you know, if you guys.

If we were looking at the executives of Kmart and the executives of Walmart, and what's the difference?

Are they smarter at Walmart?

Are they more experienced?

Are they more educated?

And I said, no, no, no.

You could hire the smartest person in that world.

You could hire the most experienced person in the world.

You could hire the most educated person in the world.

So why is Walmart Walmart and Kmart Kmart?

What's different about those two groups of people?

And by the way, this has been going on.

So I've been negotiating with Walmart for over 30 years.

But Kmart, in the meantime, has gone down the toilet.

And I realized in that trip, it struck me, the key is culture.

The key is attitude.

And Tom Watson Sr.

The founder of IBM, said, give me 100 great engineers.

Give me 100 great engineers, or give me 100 people with great attitude.

He says, I'll take the 100 people with great attitude.

You can teach engineering.

And one of the top, biggest mistakes I've ever made is trying to cheat or trying to change people's attitude.

I've been totally unsuccessful.

Over 100.

I've never been able to do it.

So it starts with attitude, which leads to culture.

And so first, when we hire, we look for the attitude of the person, not the skill set of the person.

And then they have to fit into our culture.

And the culture is so important that both of my last two companies, we have a culture committee that's totally responsible for keeping and maintaining and improving our culture.

It's funny you mentioned that.

So Neil and I, our business model is that we buy old vacant Kmart buildings and convert them into climate controlled storage facilities.

There was a couple thousand of them in the country, and that lack of culture has caused all of them to have disappeared.

We're buying them for less than $20 a square foot right now and converting them into storage.

So created an opportunity for us.

Yeah, it's amazing how that rolled out a lot of different directions we could go.

And again, I'm really grateful for your time.

I want to touch on this from the listener standpoint.

Someone thinking about.

We typically talk a lot about real estate because that's what we do and that's what we're also real estate investors.

And, you know, there's so many different ways that you can go.

And for us, the important thing is to focus on not just the financial implications, but the time and the location and implications as well, and what it means for whatever you're trying to accomplish in the goals that you have for your own life in terms of from the franchising side of things and the opportunity to build up franchise.

To me, it jumps out of something that also seems very scalable.

Like you can go in it with the intention of, I'm going to buy five locations of this franchise or whatever it may be, and it's a rubber stamp.

I'm sure there's a lot of challenges there, but from someone thinking about it and looking at using franchising as part of their business strategy, what's some of the advice that you have for people that are looking for franchise today?

Should you be looking for someone that's very seasoned, or should you be looking for an emerging franchise?

Or kind of what's the thought process for someone thinking about going down that road?

You have to be very careful because I think the average american thinks franchising is a great vehicle.

And in fact, when it's done right, it is a great vehicle.

But so many people try to get into it that fail.

Most franchiseors fail.

So you got to be real careful about emerging brand.

Over the last ten years, every year four or 500 new franchisors have started.

And every year four or 500 existing franchisors have failed to be in the top 50% of the largest.

So most are failures so you got to be real, real careful.

But when you strike gold and get that franchise system like an h and r block, like a Jackson unit, like a Liberty or like an Atax, you can do multiple locations.

The average franchisee at those chains has six or seven locations.

We have two types of franchise and one is almost like a passive income franchise.

The first location is, as you might expect, they go in and they get a location and they roll up their sleeves and they run that location.

And then typically they want two and three and four and five and six and seven.

And they'll, every couple years they'll add one and they'll grow, and as other people leave, they'll acquire those that have left.

So that's one of the great things about franchising.

You have ready made buyers, but that's the unit on the ground franchise.

So let's say in Virginia beach area, there are 50 of those types of franchise.

So you can be acquire one or two or three or four or five.

Or we have a, we call it an area representative that buys the whole area and they buy all 50 and they pay a reduced fee.

And every time a franchise is sold underneath them, they get half of that and they get half of the royalty, which is almost passive income, mailbox money type of revenue.

And if they don't want to work full time in the job, we have people available in the system, unit franchisees and former, former employees.

I can give you an employee who can very inexpensively run your area and support your area, the support you do for those 50 territories.

And it's very inexpensive.

And now if you do that, you have virtually passive income.

So we have, many of our area representatives have gone to a passive investment.

Our unit franchises tend to be hands on their own, boots on the ground.

But again, it's only a few months a year.

So they're, in a way, eight months a year, they're not working.

They're not working very much.

So in a way it's a passive income in the sense that from May to December they don't work very much at all.

So actually in the tax industry, there's only four busy weeks.

You might think of it as three and a half months, from January 1 to April 15, but we do more than half our revenue in just four weeks.

So it's really a four week industry.

And so it's somewhat passive.

It's halfway passive in the sense that in the vast majority year you're not working.

You talked about a huge number of franchisees and franchisors fail.

What are the primary reasons that cause them to fail?

Well, you guys might be a great case study.

I hope on the success side, we're gonna stop being friends here real quick.

Well, I'll tell you what happened, right?

I get guys like you, and you love your industry, and you see all kinds of opportunity, and there's no national brand.

And we have a system partner.

I mean, we have a system where we bill that others can replicate.

Why don't we franchise this?

And so what people do is they're very successful.

They're successful in their mom and pop business.

You're successful in your twelve different units, right down now, you think, well, we have a system that's replicatable.

Let's sell it to other people, and we will make money from other people.

I mean, what a great source of revenue.

We can go coast to coast.

There's no one doing it.

And so what happens is, as you get success in your mom and pop twelve locations, you say, I can do this.

I can go national.

And so you pay the money to become a franchisor, and it costs about $300,000.

Most of that is advertising.

About a third of it is administrative and legal.

Two thirds of it is advertising.

Just to begin to say that we have this rental business for sale, right?

Storage units for franchise.

Now, you still need the income from your mom and pop to live on.

So you have two jobs.

One is running the franchise system, which you know nothing about.

You've never been in the franchise industry.

You don't know how to treat franchisees.

And believe me, when you have a system of independent, maverick owners, entrepreneurs that are working for you, it's way different than the dozens of employees that you have.

You know, you guys have a dozen employees, or 20.

I didn't ask.

But you have all these employees, and that's one management responsibility.

But now you bring in this new franchisee who's in Raleigh, and he's independent, and he's a maverick.

He wants to seize the american dream.

And handling him is not the same as handling an employee.

And it's like herding cats.

So you have no skill in that.

And even if you had skill in that, which almost none of them do, that's why they fail.

They've never led a franchise system.

And so if you have franchise skill, you have foot in both camps.

You're running your mom and pop, and you're running your franchise.

Someone needs to run that franchise.

If you want to be a large majority successful franchise system.

You have someone dedicated 100% to it.

So you're not dedicated, you're not skilled at it.

You have a foot in each camp and those one, two, three strengths, you're out failure.

I find it a little bit.

There's something to unpack here.

The irony of you want them to come in and follow the system and do this.

Like you talk about the difficulty of dealing with somebody that's a maverick, that's an independent thinker, but that's exactly how you built the company, by being way ahead of your time.

Frankly, your dad sounds like he was a visionary.

And obviously you had vision on what you guys were trying to accomplish as well.

But you're also clearly a strong operator.

And to not only be an operator to build your system out, but to package it in such a way that it has value to other people that can grow to be, you know, two of the largest tax companies in the world.

This is a level of operation.

But to do it back then when you literally built out the computer program, that takes innovative thinking and it takes a vision and it takes leadership.

So it's kind of funny to me that that's not the traditional franchise person that I think of.

Right.

The person operating in a franchisor is like, here's the guidebook, follow it.

But talk to me about the leadership and the innovative thinking that it takes to take an idea like that that nobody's done before.

That was so early.

And to walk all the way through the process of completion with that.

That's a couple more of the top ten things on what you have to have to grow exponentially.

Number one is that I'll say is you have to have the ability to have a fairly accurate vision of the future and then to be able to convince everyone to buy into them.

So you have to convince your investors, your employees, your franchisees, your vendors, your customers.

You have to convince the world that you're going in the right direction, but it has to be an accurate direction.

You can't be going in the wrong direction.

So you have to have fairly accurate view of the world.

No one else even had 100.

I said, isn't there always room for a number two?

Isn't there always a Burger king or a General Motors or Ford or.

I mean, there's always room for more than one competitor and they don't.

So it's obvious there's a niche and it's just someone needed to have the system is the system and the discipline to get to that niche, first thing is you have to have an accurate vision and then you have to have you be convincing to get people to join that vision.

And then believe it or not, you'll never believe this.

How simple.

80% of franchisors fail.

Half of them are going to fail.

But it's so simple.

The difference between success and failure, the difference between success and failure is simply happy, successful franchisees.

And you have to have a system where the franchisee makes money and you make money.

If they do and I don't, it won't work.

And if I do and they don't, it won't work.

But most franchisors, they don't get them.

They build it from, I have to make extra amount of investment, they have to give me this.

And they never look at it from the franchisees side.

They look at it from their side.

So they nickel and dime the poor franchisee to death.

So the franchisee never has, only seldom or ever has a good return on investment of their money and time.

It's not just investment.

Money is investment of time and money.

So as a result of that, then you don't have happy, successful franchisees.

I think it's under clearly understandable that if I have all my franchisees, or the vast majority are happy and successful, they're not going to be able to stop me.

They're going to be talking about it, buying more franchises.

They're a great reference.

But if almost all of them are failing or not happy, then I don't have any references and they're not going to expand and I got nothing.

So it's that simple.

And yet still 80% of franchisors that opened five years ago are gone because they don't get that one simple thing.

Well, John, I want to give you a chance to talk about your latest venture, which is loyalty brands, which is it sounds like to me it's part of trying to help create happy, successful franchisees and franchisors.

Can you talk us a little bit about what loyalty brands does and how it can benefit people interested in franchises?

Yeah, in my first two ventures, I had just one brand.

I had Jackson Hewitt, and then I had Liberty tax.

But while I was waiting for my non compete to end with Liberty, I decided to based on a recommendation from a friend.

Why don't you try getting an other franchise in other industries?

Why just do tax and so we have eight different franchise systems.

They come into three buckets, right?

We have three focuses.

Number one is my 55 year focus, which I just finished my 55th tax season.

So it's tax and accounting.

And so we have a division that focuses on tax and accounting.

My second division focuses on construction, and it's led by my very fast growing roofing.

It's called cr three roofing.

And so that's the fastest growing roofing franchise in the country.

Atax, the leader of the tax is fastest growing tax.

And Cr three roofing is the fastest growing roofing and one of the top 1% fastest growing of all franchises that have started in the last two years.

But the gem in our system is pets.

And we have a pet initiative led by Zuman Grumman mobile Grumman.

And that industry is just crazy.

And now we just passed this weekend, we were up to 132, but most of those are in the last six months, so.

And we're adding over ten a month right now.

And by this time next year, we'll be adding 20 a month, like I did at Jackson Hewitt and did at Liberty.

By the end of this year, we'll be number one in the world, or number one in the United States in mobile grooming.

We'll be in every city in this country and a brand name, and you'll have heard of it.

And we're in Wilmington, North Carolina, by the way.

It's called Zuma group.

That's amazing.

What a trajectory.

And I just want to point out of everything you mentioned right now, when I think franchises, I think fast food and restaurants, you never even mentioned a food brand in that list.

So I think for anybody listening and from myself, like, maybe expand your brain a little bit, that there's a lot more opportunity than that.

And what it's creating is it's creating continuity.

That wherever you go, this cr three roofing company is like, you're going to get the same service, the same product, the same system, everything like that.

So it creates continuity and immediately gives a little bit of credibility and a feeling of trust.

Right?

Trust transfers.

And so I think there's a lot of value there.

This is reminding me of an article I read a little while back when it talked about the most important thing of the last decade among highly successful business leaders.

And at that point in time for that ten year period, the number one most important thing was emotional intelligence.

And I see that a lot in the way that you're putting the right person in the right place and giving them opportunity.

You're looking at things from other people's perspective.

And I think there's a lot of emotional intelligence.

Obviously, with the success that you've had now, the most recent of the past ten years, characteristic that's the most important thing among highly successful business leaders is adaptability.

The world is changing faster than it ever has before.

I think those are the two things that I'm hearing.

And what you're saying to me is that there is adaptability and emotional intelligence, and I think you've got both those combined in just the right way, and it's clearly given you a lot of success.

Talk to me a little bit about ever changing business landscape, kind of where we are, the opportunity you've seen in the past, the opportunity you think is coming in the future.

And how do you use that vision that you have to kind of visualize where you want to be, get a crew together using that emotional intelligence to empower the right people, and then still have to adapt in an ever changing world?

Again, you're asking me questions that will make me answer, what are the ten most important attributes?

Because you've hit on some of them.

And one of the things that's critical is that you have to have the best system in the industry.

And if David had gone under the field with the same shield, the same armor and the same sword as Goliath, there would be no David and Goliath story.

He'd be the 271st guy killed by Goliath.

So you have to have differentiators and to have the best system.

And so there's two components to best system.

One component is to have the best system.

It has to be constantly improving.

Even if changes hadn't escalated.

There's been massive changes in my lifetime.

And when I started, I did not only that computer, I didn't even have an and or a calculator.

And you had to do most of the work in your ad, right?

And then you went to calculator.

I mean, it's changed.

Sodom.

A laser printer back in eighties.

You couldn't afford it in your office.

I mean, how many laser printers do you guys have in your offices?

And what are they, dollar, 250?

You couldn't afford a laser printer.

I mean, everything's changing.

But even if it didn't change that massive, it changes.

And to have the best system, it has to be improving.

Now I'm fanatically committed to win, which means I'm fanatically committed to have the best system, which means I'm fanatically committed to improve.

But the easiest way to improve is to listen to your people.

Right?

Your people know the answers.

I don't deal with any customers.

I get my people together all the time.

And every year we have a convention and we say, tell us how to improve.

I've been doing this for over 30 years at our convention.

Tell us how to improve our support, tell us how to improve our marketing, tell us how to improve our software.

And I'm proud to say that over 30 years, every year we change more than 50%.

And it's based on the suggestions of the people.

I think the service in this country has declined every year since I can remember.

And it declines because CEO's don't listen.

When I sold Jackson Hewitt we had at the convention, we would have that listening where we would listen to the advice of the franchisees every year.

As soon as I left, they changed that.

And the new CEO, who knew nothing about the income tax business, said, we are going to lecture the franchisees and tell them how to do it.

No, you have to listen to the people that have the pulse of the customer.

And so emotional intelligence to me is the most important aspect of it is listening to your people and really listening to your people and adapting based on what you're hearing.

It's so hard to improve.

If you gotta think of everything.

If John Hewitt has, and I've been doing this 55 years, my companies have done 100 million tax returns and I brought in hundreds of thousands of employees.

And I could get real cocky and think, I know everything or I could commit to be a lifetime learner.

And I'm learning every week.

Wow.

I had a follow up question and then I decided that I think that's where we should end it.

That was just fantastic.

John Hewitt, this has been a fantastic conversation.

I've really enjoyed it.

I know Clint has because I can see that look he gets.

But if any of our listeners want to reach out to you and find out more about John Hewitt and what you're all about and loyalty brands, where would be the best place for them to do that?

There's all kinds of links on loyaltybrands.com, including you can sign up and get a free copy of my best selling book.

I will be doing that immediately.

I compete we've already sent you guys yours.

We've sent you your copy.

Thank you so much.

Is it the book I compete?

It is.

Okay.

All right.

Look for that in show notes.

We look forward to reading it as well.

So listen, John, this has been great.

We appreciate your time.

My pleasure.

Have a wonderful day.

Thanks so much.

Thank you.

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